Other than my family and my livelihood, few things are as important to me than the credibility and integrity of my list of the "Best Car Repair Shops in Phoenix". All of my actions are to insure none of us take a public flogging because of one bad apple....Mark Salem
An estimate, a mistake, an explanation and a
"best defense is a good offense" story.
SYNOPSIS OF VIRGINIA'S PRICING COMPLAINT
On August 20, 2011, David called in to my radio show. Click here to listen to this tape Virginia Auto's name was never mentioned.
Later that day Alex wrote in and said David was talking about Virginia Auto, one of my Best Shops.
Later Alex told a story and filed a complaint against Matt Allen and Virginia Auto.
Then we get a second pricing complaint against Virginia Auto.
After more than a few e-mails and some research, we removed Virginia Auto from our list of the Best Shops in Phoenix for the following reasons:
Virginia Auto refused to explain the $400 overcharge, other than to call it a mistake.
Virginia Auto refused to share the process or procedure used when a Customer rejects an estimate (what is that process?).
Virginia Auto refused to provide documentation that your cost on this radiator was $270. I know that $270 number is the dealer LIST.
Virginia Auto's estimate given to a mutual customer was later a serious concern of mine, once I saw the contrast between Virginia Auto's estimate and our fix.
Virginia Auto refused to provide the repair order number of mine where you claim I charged a lady $1500 and did not fix her car. I will address their request once they give me the repair order number. The absence of participating in this exchange of information suggests Matt was lying.
Virginia Auto is manipulating their reviews on Yelp and other websites.
The details are below.
082011 via e-mail
From Alex to Mark
I was very interested to hear your comments on today’s show regarding Auto Service Coupons; especially when you said something like, "I recently heard about a deal for 300 some odd dollars worth of service for $49.00, something ridiculous like that". I know that is not an exact quote of what you said, but it was something to that effect.
The reason this caught my attention is that I recently purchased such a deal on Groupon.com from Virginia Auto Service, which is one of your recommended garages, so I was very surprised to hear that comment from you because it sounded exactly like this Coupon I purchased for them through Groupon.com.
Here is a link to the page which has the deal on it: http://www.groupon.com/deals/virginia-auto-service-1
I was hoping you would take a look at this and tell me what you think. I figured that the Three Oil changes alone were worth the $49.00. I have already started using Virginia Auto Service based on your recommendation; however, am wondering if, based on this coupon deal, I should question that. Thank you for your time.
082311 via e-mail
From Mark to Alex.
There are 61 Best Shops and all 61 of us have different ideas how to run a business. I THINK they trust my complaint skills and understanding of those kinds of problems. They are under no obligation to match my marketing or even allow me to review it.
I was talking about that Groupon.com idea which I personally find objectionable. I personally think this is was way to get them in and rip their car apart and sell them the world.
Matt will soon know what I think but he can disagree. I am not their Dad, but I do get to say what I think is true / good / honest / beneficial and so do they.
Mark thinking out loud.
I took the link noted above and it says you would pay $49 and get $380 of repair work for FREE. I called Matt at Virginia Auto and I asked him to defend his Groupon Coupon pricing. I added up the "FREE" services offered and I thought he was pressing a few boundaries. Other than a possible pricing issue with no real complaint in front of me, I thought the discussion was over. I was wrong.
091311 via e-mail from the same Alex above (edited for brevity)
I wanted to provide you with a follow up to this email thread about the Groupon.com I bought for Virginia Auto Service (VAS). I was overdue for an oil change in my 2000 Tacoma 3.4L Manual 4x4 Extended Cab, so I scheduled one for today with VAS. A little over an hour after I dropped it off, I received a phone call from the woman who was behind the counter this morning; I believe Christie was her name. She told me she had some bad news; there was no radiator fluid in my overflow reservoir and when they checked it out I had a crack in the upper tank of my radiator. She said it would cost me $1000.00 dollars to replace it. Admittedly, as of late I have been a little neglectful of my weekly under the hood checks, so I could not say I had or had not seen a low, (or no), level in my overflow reservoir. I accepted her at her word and told her to go ahead with the new radiator.
I began thinking about the price I was quoted and could not imagine the prices of radiators could have gone up so much as to justify a $1000.00 bill.
I did a Google search and found Westside Radiator Service. I called them and they told me that the radiator for my vehicle would be $139.00, or $294.00 installed. As soon as I got off the phone with them I called VAS to tell them not to install the new radiator.
The phone at VAS was answered by another woman than whom I had spoken with earlier. I told her who I was and that I did not want the new radiator installed. She put me on hold and then the phone was picked up by Matt. I told him that I did not want the new radiator put in because it was, "very, very, expensive". He asked if I thought it was very, very expensive because of how much money it was, or because I had called around and got other prices? I told him, "Both". I told him I had called Westside Radiator and they had quoted me $300.00. Matt said that the cost of the radiator to him was $270.00 so he would have to check out the quote and asked if I could hold. When he came back he said that after looking at the quote I had been given he saw that Christie had miscalculated the labor; then he saw that she had just quoted me the first price on a radiator she had found just to get the work going, but that after looking around she had found a less expensive one and they would adjusted the price. He said with the corrected labor cost and the less expensive radiator the job would come to about $595.00. He went to pains to try to explain the errors and that I would have only paid this anyway, and that he was not adjusting the price because they had been "Caught". He also went on to say that he didn't know about Westside Radiator and their reputation; but that his radiator had a "life time" guarantee and that after 5 years if the radiator failed I would only have to pay for labor on an associated radiator repair or replacement.
I thanked him, told him I have just started a new job and that $300.00 was still a big difference to me; so I would like to have the oil change and tire rotation done, but did not want the new radiator installed.
Needless to say, I am very disappointed. I believe that after this, Matt and VAS have lost my trust. I will likely look at the $49.00 I paid for the VAS Groupon as the cost for an oil change, tire rotation, a lesson learned; and not return to them for any service in the future. Sincerely, Alex
Mark thinking out loud.
I see numerous issues within this complaint.
A $1,000 quote for the radiator, labor, flush, t-stat and radiator cap. There is a dispute what water hoses or if hoses were originally included.
"The phone at VAS was answered by another woman than whom I had spoken with earlier (Christie). I told her who I was and that I did not want the new radiator installed. She put me on hold, came back a little later to ask if she could keep me on hold a little longer, and then the phone was picked up by Matt. I told him that I did not want the new radiator put in because it was, "very, very, expensive". He asked if I thought it was very, very expensive because of how much money it was, or because I had called around and got other prices?"
This is called sending a Customer to the "Grinder". The grinder’s job is to save the sale, using whatever tactics they have to.
"Matt said that the cost of the radiator to him was $270.00 . . ."
I had my parts staff bid my cost on this EXACT radiator. My cost was between $92 and $122. I then asked my staff to find this $270 number. They found this $270 was the RETAIL price of this radiator at the dealer. NOT my cost or Matt’s cost, it was the RETAIL price. Lots of shops mark up the dealer price. "Up" from our cost, NOT "up" from the RETAIL price.
Matt said that the cost of the radiator to him was $270.00 so he would have to check out the quote and asked if I could hold. When he came back he said that after looking at the quote I had been given he saw that Christie had miscalculated the labor;
You have what information I have, you make the call.
"He went to pains to try to explain the errors and that I would have only paid this anyway, and that he was not adjusting the price because they had been "Caught". He also went on to say that he didn't know about Westside Radiator and their reputation; but that his radiator had a "life time" guarantee and that after 5 years if the radiator failed I would only have to pay for labor on an associated radiator repair or replacement. "
This is called standing on "someone’s shoulders to make yourself look better" when in fact, it looks like Matt had been "caught".
On 100611 via e-mail
Mark to Matt
"According to the RO he faxed me from Westside Radiator, he paid $139.00 for a new radiator and $140.00 install, plus $15 for coolant, $35 for a flush (that is very cheap) and a t-stat and cap, plus tax was a total of $405. Comments please.
On 100611 via e-mail
Matt to Mark
Mark, I think we owe each other some face to face time. I want to meet
with you to show you the facts and circumstance around the repair and
recommendations on the Toyota in question. Kristy did in fact make a mistake, there
was no fleecing of a customer or attempt at wind fall profits. My recollection is that our
quote also included hoses and other items not included on the quote/invoice from Westside.
Since we are now reviewing each others invoices...I had one of my listeners send
me a FINAL invoice from Salem boys for review...now if you want to see some gross
overcharges and fleecing we should discuss your work order too. By the way $1500 in
charges and the car still had not been properly repaired, is what she said.
Im out of town until friday night and I'm busy from 11 to noon on Saturday but we
could meet in a mutually convenient location about 12:30. What's best for you? Just let me
know. Matt Allen
Mark thinking out loud.
An snap shot of Alex's repair order from Virginia Auto:
On the oil change invoice, the Customer also paid a $6.47 for this "coupon" service (Groupon.com).
Change the oil and filter and perform a "comprehensive vehicle inspection".
The front tires are cupped
The K&N air filter is dirty (cleaning this is normally more than a simple free install of a new filter)
The radiator hoses are hard
The power steering fluid is dirty
FREE tire inflation with nitrogen
FREE tire rotation
It should be noted that on this oil change, there was additional recommendations on a second repair order that said the following was needed:
Replace the leaking valve cover gasket, PCV & replace ignition wires parts & labor $653
Replace spark plugs - Parts and labor $180
Adjust and clean rear brakes - Parts and labor $57
Lower hose is seeping - Tighten lower hose clamp N/C
Replace wiper blades - Parts and labor $32
Resurface and shine cloudy headlight lens N/C
Power steering flush unknown $
All of the above was bid at $1,199.91
There was a written recommendation for front struts and rear shocks and alignment but no pricing was attached.
Bottom line, the Customer went in for an oil change which he thought was free. He left with a $1200 plus written estimate and another undocumented amount for all the struts and shocks and alignment. (My guess another $800-$1,000)
100611 via e-mail
Mark to Matt
"Pls share the Salem Boys Repair order with me...mark"
101211 via e-mail
Mark to Matt
I would appreciate it if you would reply in writing, to my request for a review of the complaint I sent to you. Please be specific about each issue your Customer brings up, for instance the $400 mistake, the process or procedure you use when a Customer rejects an estimate (is part of your process to have the Customer was passed to you?), and please provide documentation that your cost on this radiator was $270.
You originally agreed to participate in any complaint about your shop, like you did in Aug of 2007 and July of 2008.
By the way, since the first of the year, your page on our site has been accessed 557 times or an average of about 3 times a day.
I also asked you as well to provide me with the RO number of our repair order you saw and had concerns about.
You can ignore me.
You can refuse to participate in this process.
Just tell me what you intend to do. I am willing to wait for another few days or so.
101411 via e-mail
Matt to Mark
I'm out of town and have a response by Tuesday at the latest Matt.
101311 The start of the second pricing complaint against Virginia Auto by Mr. X
A Customer of mine (Mr. X) comes to my shop and asks to talk to me in private. He says he went to another shop for an oil change, they gave him a laundry list of work he needs. They asked him who did his auto repair work and he said Salem Boys. The lady at this other shop, Christy, said things may change at Salem Boys because Mark is retiring and leaving his kids in charge.
(That is untrue. I am not retiring yet. Secondly, Christy left this Customer under the impression my kids were not suited to run Salem Boys. Alan (32) and Andi (28) have worked in the family business since 1986. Alan runs the shop and Andi does the books and both have been in that position since 2000. Ask any of my Customers if Andi and Alan are not "good or great representatives" of the Salem Boys and the Salem Family.")
Mr. X politely declined the list they said he needed and brought his car to Salem Boys.
080211 Mr. X brought his car to Salem Boys and handed my staff the repair order from an unknown repair shop, he asked us to review the other shops list. The top of this other shops work order had been chopped off or covered up by Mr. X so we did not know who this "other" shop was.
101311 Mr X said he did that because this other shop was Virginia Auto and they are on my list of the Best Shops in Phoenix and he did not want us to know that.
I found this "covered up repair order", our tech’s work sheet and the actual final Salem Boys repair or work order. I then created the chart below. It speaks for its self.
What Virginia recommended on 7/20/11 |
Price |
Notes |
What Salem Boys did on 08/02/11 |
Price |
Notes |
Front brakes are at 1/32, rotors need to be replaced |
$ 658.28 |
New rotors |
Front brakes are at 2/32. Replace pads and turn rotors. Does not need new rotors. |
$ 220.00 |
OTD |
Rear brakes, Recommend cutting brake pin hardware for further inspection (estimate for rear brakes and drums) |
$ 825.00 |
Clean and adjust rear brakes, Brake and drums were fine. We had no trouble removing the one rear brake drum. Brake pads are fine. |
$ 50.00 |
OTD |
|
Brake fluid flush |
$ 145.00 |
Not recommended |
$ 0.00 |
||
Alignment (edge wear) |
No estimate given |
Tire wear is ok. No alignment symptoms. We had done an alignment on 7/2010 |
$ 0.00 |
||
Play in left inner tie rods, recommend all tie rods and alignment |
$ 780.00 |
No front end issues found. (was this bid because of the tread edge wear?) |
$ 0.00 |
||
Fuel cap gasket is cracked |
No estimate given |
Check cap, not leaking, factory cap and no DTC’s (codes) |
$ 0.00 |
||
License plate lamp inop |
$ 1.01 |
Completed at Virginia |
$ 0.00 |
||
Both front marker lamps inop |
$ 2.02 |
Completed at Virginia |
$ 0.00 |
||
Third brake lamp has bulbs out |
Declined |
Third brake light inop ($5.00 est, declined) |
$ 0.00 |
OTD |
|
Throttle body hose is taped on, Noted that the idle seems low at 4-5000 rpms |
$ 150.00 |
Boot is torn, Replace boot, idle is good no misfire present |
$ 147.00 |
OTD |
|
Valve covers are seeping |
No estimate given |
Not addressed |
$ 0.00 |
||
Transmission fluid is dirty |
$ 273.70 |
Fluid is brown, no record of being done in last 3 years. All fluid flushed and replaced. We actually billed this labor at $69.95 when it should have been $80.00. Our fault. |
$ 172.00 |
OTD |
|
Power steering fluid is dirty |
$ 161.00 |
Fluid is brown, no record of being done in last 3 years |
$ 120.00 |
OTD |
|
Battery cables are dirty |
$ 34.95 |
Completed at Virginia (our price $32 + tax = $34) |
$ 0.00 |
OTD |
|
Upper hose shows sign of leakage, added coolant tightened clamp |
$ 0.00 |
No charge |
Completed at Virginia |
$ 0.00 |
|
$ 3,030.96 |
$709 bid given, ticket came in at $676.04 = 5% under bid. |
$709.00 |
OTD = out the door pricing.
101811 via certified mail
Matt to Mark
Allen Automotive Services Inc
Virginia Auto Service
386 E Virginia Ave
Phoenix, AZ 85004
October 17, 2011
RE: Best Repair Shops - Virginia Auto Service
Mark,
On October 6, I responded to your email, from the same date, regarding Alex xxxxxxx. You did not request a "review of the complaint", as suggested in your email on October 6, you simply forwarded a partial exchange of emails between yourself and the customer, you added some additional commentary about an invoice from Westside Radiator that he provided to you and ended with "comments please".
Once again, as I said in my email of October 6, Kristy made a mistake when preparing this estimate for the customer. There is nothing more to it than that. Virginia Auto Service has paid annually to be on your repair shops list since 2000 and have had many endorsements by you as well as having a near perfect "record" other than a couple minor "complaints" (one in 2007 and one in 2009). Additionally we have an A+ rating with the BBB. I will not be engaging in an email and letter exchanging campaign with you in an effort, by you, to sensationalize and make something out of Kristie’s mistake that does not exist.
Mark, since I opened in 1994 and met You, Mike, Leon, Bob Jones, Marshall, Whitey, Toni Warn and many others at the first ASA Christmas meeting I attended, we have been industry friends and attended Tuesday breakfast together for years without any conflict. You always gave me good advice and were helpful. That all changed August 20th, when you bad mouthed me on the radio by inferring that the Groupon.com offer we featured was nothing more than a way for me to rip a customer’s head off by overcharging and suggesting services that are not needed. Your statements are wrong, baseless and without fact and slanderous. Many of our peers suggest this was a pre-emptive strike and retaliation against me and Virginia Auto Service because I was the one replacing you on KTAR. If you were truly interested in resolving a customer issue you would have made contact with me when Alex emailed you about his concern on September 13. Instead, you planted "seeds" on your Facebook page as early as September 14 and as recently as October 3 then you sat on the information for 23 days.
Given some time and reflection, I’m sure this will all gain perspective and hindsight will certainly be 20/20. I would like nothing more than for us to reestablish the friendship and relationship that we have enjoyed for 16 years or so. Sincerely, Matt Allen
Mark's childish response
Matt, shame on you for being childish,
Listen to the tape link above Matt. Virginia Auto was never mentioned. You have boogie men chasing you Matt, I never knew he was talking about you ‘till I got Alex’s email after the show. That email is time stamped at 03:19:45 pm, long after the show ended at noon. I am allowed freedom of speech, just like you.
You are the only one who describes those past complaints as "minor".
You did not replace me. You can’t replace me. You aren’t even ASE certified. You couldn’t fix a car if I spotted you.
Now back to the high road. . . . Mark
I am removing Virginia Auto for ethical reasons.
Two pricing issues from two different unrelated Customers is more than a coincidence.
My other reasons are listed below:
Virgina Auto refused to explain the $400 overcharge, other than to call it a mistake.
Virgina Auto refused to share the process or procedure used when a Customer rejects an estimate.
Virgina Auto refused to provide documentation that their cost on this radiator was $270. I know that $270 number is the dealer LIST.
Virgina Auto refused to provide the repair order number of mine where they claim I charged a lady $1500 and did not fix her car. Why wouldn’t they produce that $1500 Salem Boys repair order for me when I have been up front with them?
Virgina Auto is manipulating their reviews on Yelp and other websites.
I did read all of their reviews on the web and they sure had many nice ones. But on FaceBook (FB), they offer folks a $15 off an oil change OR they give away tickets to sporting events for a "nice" Yelp review. Isn’t that the same as buying nice reviews? That is a violation of Yelp rules.
Yelp says:
"You agree not to, and will not assist, encourage, or enable others to use the Site to:
Violate our Content Guidelines, for example, by writing a fake or defamatory review, trading reviews with other businesses, or compensating someone or being compensated to write or remove a review;
Promote a business or other commercial venture or event, or otherwise use the Site for commercial purposes, except in connection with a Business Account and as expressly permitted by Yelp;
Send bulk emails, surveys, or other mass messaging, whether commercial in nature or not; engage in keyword spamming, or otherwise attempt to manipulate the Site's search results or any third party website; "
From http://www.yelp.com/static?p=tos
This is from Virginia Auto’s FaceBook page:
07/15/11 125pm FB
Do you want to get 50% off your next oil change? If you're a current customer, please give us a review on Yelp.com and let us know. We'll send you a certificate for half off your next oil change or $15 any other service or repair. Thanks!!
07/26/11 743am FB
Want to save $15 on your next oil change? Give us a review on Google Maps, or Yelp.com. Email us at Mallen (at) virginia-AutoService.com when you're done. Thanks for your help!!
08/08/11 1049am FB and 08/01/11 700am FB
We need your help! Google changed their search and online reviews are more important
than ever!! Please give us a review on Google or Yelp.com and we'll give you a certificate
for $15 off your next oil change or repair!
08/10/11 553PM FB
"We have two tickets to the Phoenix Mercury vs Atlanta tomorrow at 7pm. Sec. 109, Row 19 Seat 3&4. FREE to the first one who writes a nice review about Virginia Auto Service on YELP or Google
08/23/11 1249pm FB
Want to get a certificate for $15 off your next oil change or service? Give us a review on Yelp.com. Thanks !!
Rules are for everyone. Bending the rules is not allowed at the Best Car Repair Shops.
Readers, if you want to comment on this issue, you are welcome to send a signed e-mail to me with your name and phone number. I am open to your position on this matter, I am open to honest dialog. Mark@marksalem.com
Both have been removed from my Best Car list because of ethical reasons. For Tri-City Transmission removal story, click here. http://www.salemboysauto.com/bestautorepair/shops/tricity.html
Matt Allen from Virginia Auto and Dave Ricco from Tri-City Transmission are both KTAR talk show hosts of the Bumper to Bumper radio show that took the 11am hour at KTAR. I left the marketing company that owned this hour, I walked away, no one pushed me out. Others will suggest I am getting even. I am fine with you making the decision if that is the case.
Here is the timeline:
Nov 2010 An ethical issue was brought to my attention about Tri-City Transmission
Jan 01, 2011 I removed Tri-City, much to the chagrin of the marketing company (MBH) who was mad because "they are worth 55k -65k in advertising annually".
Mar11, 2011 I gave my notice to MBH Marketing that I would fulfill his contract with KTAR until the last day Sept 3, 2011 and then I was divorcing him.
Aug 20, 2011 First of many e-mails referring to Virginia Auto and GroupOn.com coupons.
Sept 3, 2011 Mark’s last KTAR radio show.
Sept 10, 2011 Virginia Auto and Tri-City Transmission started their own radio show called Bumper to Bumper on KTAR.
Aug 20 to Oct 18 Mark investigated the Virginia Auto complaint
Oct 19, 2011 Virginia Auto was removed from www.BestCarRepairShops.com .
You can decide if the evidence above is sufficient. If you feel I am being unfair, then you can let me know. You don’t need my permission to continue to patronize these two shops.
The moral of this story is simple. All consumers who read the results of our investigation, will know what a shopping list looks like. They will know that second opinions on high dollar repair estimates, can be very beneficial.
Last, the Best Car Repair Shop list is my baby. Remember, I say this to you:
"If you have a problem with one of my "Best Shops" AND the BBB agrees with your version of the issue AND the shop refuses to abide by the BBB decision, I will personally carry out the directives of the BBB including repairing your car and/or issuing a refund up to $5,000."
Risk vs Reward is a concept I understand. I am unwilling to risk $5,000 on shops who have shown bad judgment or a shop who has been accused of significant VERIFIABLE pricing issues.
Mark Salem ( mark@marksalem.com )
© 2011 All Rights Reserved MarkSalem.com